Vettori or Kallis?

[Bluebagger]

Hahahaha!!

[Howsie]

Yes, we only lose our entire middle order but no matter, why use that as an excuse. Astle Cairns and McMillan were all good player's at one point in time, them all leaving at pretty much the same time really hurt us.

[braguvaran]

Maybe the answer to this thread has been given by the vettori innings we have seen?

If it was kallis he wouldnt have been out on 99 if he was given like 4 dropped chances!!

[-D-S-B-]

On current form Vettori
Over career Kallis
Who would I have in my team, Vettori (probly coz im a kiwi tho)

[King Pietersen]

Jacques Kallis is one of the greatest cricketers of the modern era. His record in the 2000's is exceptional. There is no way on earth I'd consider picking Daniel Vettori ahead of him in a Test team. Vettori's one of the most over-rated Test bowlers on the planet. Very rarely performs and takes wickets against the big teams, has his bowling stats massively boosted by wickets against Bangladesh. His overall bowling average in the last decade looks alright, averaging 33 overall, but he's only averaging under 30 against 1 decent team, Sri Lanka.

I wouldn't consider someone who's done the majority of their scoring at #8 an all-rounder either. Sure he's made a couple of hundreds, but not outs boost your average down at 8 and there's no chance he's anywhere near as good as Kallis technically. Vettori and Kallis are pretty even in the bowling stakes, both got good records against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, both got a similar bowling average (although Kallis's is better), but Kallis is so much better with the bat than Vettori will ever be.

Just look at Kallis's record in the 2000's. He's scored 8428 runs since the turn of the decade, averaging 58.93, making 26 hundreds. He averages over 40 against every team in the world bar Sri Lanka, and his run tally in the 2000's is only surpassed by Ricky Ponting and Rahul Dravid. So the fact he's taken 205 Test wickets in that time as well, just puts him ahead of any all-rounder from this era and makes him one of the great all-rounders to have ever played the game; possibly in the top 2 behind the collossus Sir Garfield Sobers.

Vettori is simply not in his league. Sure he's done better in the last 2 years, but meh to that. Kallis is getting back to his old form, and is still one of the greatest batsmen in the world, and there's no way on earth that Vettori's bowling surpasses Kallis's so much that it makes him a better all-rounder.

[Howsie]

Originally Posted by King Pietersen

Vettori is simply not in his league. Sure he's done better in the last 2 years, but meh to that. Kallis is getting back to his old form, and is still one of the greatest batsmen in the world, and there's no way on earth that Vettori's bowling surpasses Kallis's so much that it makes him a better all-rounder.

So meh to the question then? nz0003 has clearly started this thread because of Vettori's hot form over the last two years, and Kallis's rather average (for him anyway) form. As for Vettori's not out's, over the last five years he's averaged 45.6 and he's only had eight not-outs in total, and one of them was a 0*. His not-out's are hardly boosting that average, heck Kallis might even have more in that space of time.

His bowling record against Australia isn't too shabby either, 56 wickets at 33 with six 5 wicket hauls. He also averages 23 against Sri Lanka which is outstanding and 25 against the West Indies, but for some reason they're not counted right?

[Gazza]

He's done better than most spinners against Australia.....

[King Pietersen]

As the legendary haired man Donald Trump stated, you have to look beyond the present day and look to the recent history. Simply taking the last 2 years, where Vettori's happened to perform well and where Kallis has had a few injuries and struggles and then leading to a conclusion that Vettori's a better all-rounder is ludicrous, as there's no way that Vettori is in the same league as Jacques Kallis in terms of Test all-rounders.

Also, it's funny that as soon as it supports your argument runs/wickets against the West Indies are important, but when it's Stuart Broad or Ravi Bopara taking wickets or scoring runs against them, they don't count.

I understand you're a Kiwi, so have an instant love for Daniel Vettori, but come on, be real here. You're honestly comparing one of the greatest all-rounders of the modern era to Daniel Vettori. I'm sure if you hand picked stats from a couple of years you could make a case for Ian Bell being a better Test batsman than Sachin Tendulkar.

At the end of the day, if I was picking a Test XI, Jacques Kallis would be in it, Daniel Vettori wouldn't. I just don't rate him as a Test bowler. Seems a good bloke, I respect him alot, he's a good player for NZ, but as a Test cricketer I find him to be hugely over-rated.

[Howsie]

Look back two or three pages, I've clearly said who I would take. I pretty much said what you said but I didn't rubbish Vettori while doing it. Again, what I got from this thread was that he was asking/saying that Vettori is the best performing all-rounder over the last two years, yet all we ever hear is that it's between Kallis and Flintoff. I don't actually think anyone in this thread has said Vettori > Kallis, but if they have while they're nuts. Vettori deserves all the praise he get's as he's pretty much a one man team these day's (although Taylor and Ryder seem to be coming round).

Also, it's funny that as soon as it supports your argument runs/wickets against the West Indies are important, but when it's Stuart Broad or Ravi Bopara taking wickets or scoring runs against them, they don't count.

Ah, I remember hearing before the Ashes that Broad had improved so much because of how he went against the WI, and how is average was coming down, I didn't see you taking away his record against them then. Same for Bopara.

[nikhil_99]

Vettori is much better, he is very consistent these days, in all formats, Kallis hasent really performed well is recent past (though we all say class is permanent,still Vettori has really plated good against all oppositions he played with, for past 2 years), I will go with Vettori..

[BKB1991]

I'd still rate Kallis over Vettori, though Vettori is catching him fast.

[CG123]

@ King Pietersen - Vettori is easily in the same league as Kallis in test all-rounders. An average of over 45 in the past FIVE years is astonishing for a number eight batsmen.
Yes they are two completely different player's, one being a top order pace AR and the other a middle-lower order spin AR.

In 12 matches against IND he averages over 40, he averages over 50 against PAK. This year he is averaging 65 against WI, SL and PAK.
In terms of bowling, he is probably currently the second best spin bowler behind Murali, last year in 14 tests he took 54 wickets at 26.12 and an E/R of 2.38...
As captain he has a bowling average of 31.14 and a E/R of 2.49, while a batting average of 44.6 ans a S/R of 61...

[King Pietersen]

I would try and argue, but I've posted my thoughts on Daniel Vettori the Test bowler before, cba to find the stats and post it again. Just think he's abit over-rated, and not in the same league as one of the great all-rounders of the era.

[MacLovin]

Originally Posted by King Pietersen

Jacques Kallis is one of the greatest cricketers of the modern era. His record in the 2000's is exceptional. There is no way on earth I'd consider picking Daniel Vettori ahead of him in a Test team. Vettori's one of the most over-rated Test bowlers on the planet. Very rarely performs and takes wickets against the big teams, has his bowling stats massively boosted by wickets against Bangladesh. His overall bowling average in the last decade looks alright, averaging 33 overall, but he's only averaging under 30 against 1 decent team, Sri Lanka.

I wouldn't consider someone who's done the majority of their scoring at #8 an all-rounder either. Sure he's made a couple of hundreds, but not outs boost your average down at 8 and there's no chance he's anywhere near as good as Kallis technically. Vettori and Kallis are pretty even in the bowling stakes, both got good records against Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, both got a similar bowling average (although Kallis's is better), but Kallis is so much better with the bat than Vettori will ever be.

Just look at Kallis's record in the 2000's. He's scored 8428 runs since the turn of the decade, averaging 58.93, making 26 hundreds. He averages over 40 against every team in the world bar Sri Lanka, and his run tally in the 2000's is only surpassed by Ricky Ponting and Rahul Dravid. So the fact he's taken 205 Test wickets in that time as well, just puts him ahead of any all-rounder from this era and makes him one of the great all-rounders to have ever played the game; possibly in the top 2 behind the collossus Sir Garfield Sobers.

Vettori is simply not in his league. Sure he's done better in the last 2 years, but meh to that. Kallis is getting back to his old form, and is still one of the greatest batsmen in the world, and there's no way on earth that Vettori's bowling surpasses Kallis's so much that it makes him a better all-rounder.

thats exactly what i was saying.. Kallis bats at top 3, and usually the 1st bowling change.

again to all the Kiwi users, not every 1 is gona agree with you, but thats no reason to get upset

[hMarka]

Im surprised that there is doubt that Vettori can be classified as an all-rounder.

The man has 3492 runs and 303 wickets! What more do you want?