National pride. Positive or negative?

[barmyarmy]

Here is a poster I saw in Germany (written in English) which hopes for a German exit from the WC at the group stages in order to prevent:

"flag waving drunks...nationalistic victory parades" etc




I also know there has been some debate in the UK about the desirability of attaching flags to cars and using them as objects of national pride etc.

Do people think the World Cup has a positive or negative effect on a nation? With the news that two England fans were arrested at the weekend for painting swastikas on themselves and that there was alcohol-fueled trouble at the London and Liverpool screenings of the Paraguay match do people think the WC is taken too seriously and can actually be divisive rather than unifying?
Would your country winning the world cup really be a good thing or would it just encourage more untempered nationalism of the sort that caused most the problems of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries?

[manee]

Fantastic post...

My friend said his opinion well when she said:

If England lose the World Cup theyll smash windows out of rage, if they win, theyll get excited and smash windows...either way, youre not safe!

My opinion is that these cases of racial abuse and vandalism are rare and in the most case it unifys people alot...

So, I would even go as far as saying that the petty (or large at times) crimes are worth the larger unifying effects!!!

But thats just my opinion

Manee

[skater]

National pride is a good thing, showing that you care about your country and that you want it to do well is brilliant. However, you have to show respect to the hosts, in this case Germany, and wait until they get home!

[manee]

I think showing respect to the hosts will water down the national pride because it doesnt let people unleash themselves totally into the compotition, it makes them be more connected to reality if you no what i mean...

And...for Germany's past I think it will b many a year b4 they get respect from yobs who cannot forget something that happened ages ago.

My two cents

Manee

[skater]

It angers me when people wildly claim that they don't like Germans because 'they declared war with us' in this country. Adolf Hitler was Austrian, and he told the public that they could either join his army or die. Let's leave that one here, otherwise there could be arguments, ok?

[barmyarmy]

Just as a humerous aside to this, an english newspaper columnist wondered this weekend why FIFA had given England games in cities where there were so many Germans around...

[embi]

I think that yeah, they should respect the hosts and not get into trouble with them, but they should be allowed a bit of competitiveness. Obviously not on the level of riots and painting swastikas on themselves, but...

[skater]

I think the conflicting history of the English and the Germans was considered when it came to deciding on the venues that each country would play in. There are many people who have realised that the second world war was not endorsed by Germany, but a small amount of people can't accept that. On a different note, I was wary about using flags but now I have two on the car and one outside the house!

[manee]

Originally Posted by Skateboarder

It angers me when people wildly claim that they don't like Germans because 'they declared war with us' in this country. Adolf Hitler was Austrian, and he told the public that they could either join his army or die. Let's leave that one here, otherwise there could be arguments, ok?

Great point...remember that for your GCSE's .

BOT: I think we just have to deal with eccentrics (polite word for yobs), sometimes they just wont listen and hence any argument with them is useless

[Englishandproud]

Originally Posted by manee

And...for Germany's past I think it will b many a year b4 they get respect from yobs who cannot forget something that happened ages ago.

So you are calling old soliders and national heroes who served during the wars yobs ?, because some of these people can not just forget what happened as they witnessed what went on in the various countries first hand.

That statement is the problem with many young people today, they don't understand what went on at that time, infact the period of 1933-1945 doesn't even exist in most German schools to this day, people should remember what happened as a reminder of what can happen if the wrong people get in control of a country.

It will be many a year before what went on during those years can be forgotten.

Originally Posted by Skateboarder

Adolf Hitler was Austrian, and he told the public that they could either join his army or die.

Not true at all, many joined as their wasn't many jobs around at that time due the Depression in America which had affected germany so badly that it crippled its economy and many decided that joining the armed forces was the best thing to do.

Mods - Please don't feel the need to delete any of this post as im purely putting my point of view across about what people have said.

Oh and National Pride can only be a positive thing as more people feel happier and thus go to work more often and take less sick days leading to higher productivity rates in the country.

[embi]

Fantastic post mate.
The main problem with younger people is that they often treat the Nazis as a joke. It could possibly have something to do with war games (both on and off the screen).

[James219]

Everyone focuses on the second world war don't they, never the first...
England did declare war on Germany in 1914, so that's intertwined too, but really, most of the offenders are misinformed and use it as an excuse for poor behaviour- I doubt they really care about what occurred between their homelands almost a century ago, but it's a way to fuel tension.
Well, Hitler was pretty smart, and as EnglishandProud said, Germany were in a position of economic vulnerability as a result of the Wall Street crash- he was able to quickly identify that, and used his influential nature and charisma to create a sense of hope around the depleted nation. They then joined the armed forces (well not always) and he tied his plan in nicely, I guess. Everyone treats the Nazis as a joke over here, despite not knowing anything about them- some don't even realise it's a political party - and particularly in schools, take random shots at Hitler; I wonder how they'd react to that in Germany...
Nationalism is good, and has been a driving force behind many great things over the last few centuries, but people can go too far, using irrelevant incidents of the past that had nothing to do with the successive generations to give leverage to certain debates over sport- or anything really.

[Ritwik]

Originally Posted by Englishandproud

So you are calling old soliders and national heroes who served during the wars yobs ?, because some of these people can not just forget what happened as they witnessed what went on in the various countries first hand.

That statement is the problem with many young people today, they don't understand what went on at that time, infact the period of 1933-1945 doesn't even exist in most German schools to this day, people should remember what happened as a reminder of what can happen if the wrong people get in control of a country.

It will be many a year before what went on during those years can be forgotten.

Not true at all, many joined as their wasn't many jobs around at that time due the Depression in America which had affected germany so badly that it crippled its economy and many decided that joining the armed forces was the best thing to do.

Mods - Please don't feel the need to delete any of this post as im purely putting my point of view across about what people have said.

Oh and National Pride can only be a positive thing as more people feel happier and thus go to work more often and take less sick days leading to higher productivity rates in the country.

Excellent post. Puts some important issues in proper perspective. The proper way to deal with historical tensions and conflicts is not by forgetting them or actually "erasing" them from history but by realizing that people can be fooled, tricked and lured into acts which they might later regret, either collectively or individually. Most of these troubles originate from the idea of treating citizens as a manifestation of their "identity" (for eg as "white" or "muslim") rather than realizing that each individual per force carries multiple identities. That is I might be a Hindu by birth, but my actions cannot be viewed on the basis of that one characteristic alone!

Treating the Nazis as a joke is a grevious folly - surely a war machine responsible for the painful deaths of millions can't be a joke ? But most young folks these days gives two hoots to history, philosophy and the humanities, and are uninformed about most of the issues about which they freely comment.

[Sureshot]

With these idiots, it's not so much national pride that's the problem, it's the alcohol that they down quicker than a water dam.

They are a disgrace, not much can be done about it.

The problem of English fans has improved though imo in this world cup, I don't think arrest figures for England fans has even broken a dozen as of yet.

Thing is, If anything can be done, what?

[embi]

Originally Posted by Sureshot

With these idiots, it's not so much national pride that's the problem, it's the alcohol that they down quicker than a water dam.

They are a disgrace, not much can be done about it.

The problem of English fans has improved though imo in this world cup, I don't think arrest figures for England fans has even broken a dozen as of yet.

Thing is, If anything can be done, what?

Well 3 drunk fans got the dubious honour of being the first English fans (maybe the first fans) of being arrested by "vandalising a taxi". Apparently, they just shouted at him, and he got them arrested. Noobs.

Alcohol is technically a drug. If it wasn't so popular or if it had worse effects governments would have banned it. Just like other drugs (but diluted, so less effects) alcohol is drunk to enhance the experience or escape from a bad one (though the latter would not apply to England fans). But again, in the wrong hands it can be dangerous.

England fans have generally been a lot better this year. On some news website (Reuters or something) I read an article about a police officer with a megaphone who started dancing with England fans in a party. I think it said he was German, so that can only make things better.

Just wondering, if anyone but Colin had started a thread like this, then would there be such philosophical (the only way to describe it ) discussion? Maybe noone else would be able to think of such a decent subject.